Boeing 737 - 400 Speeds

Recently on a Vatsim flight I was directed to increase my cruise speed for
seperation. I realised at that point that there are a number of key speeds that
I don't have data for. Can any one help me with a few key speeds (or direct me
to a good site).

I currently have that Mmo is 0.82 Vmo is 340 kts. But that is an operational
maximum that I imagine you never want to actually fly at.

Key Speed 1: What is the Maximum Cruise Speed that you would fly at to assist
ATC (I imagine that depends on wieght and level so an example or a table would
be welcome.

ATC sometimes want you to slow to a minimum speed.

Key Speed 2: Minimum clean speed?

A few articles have pointed to "Boeing 737 - 400 Maneuvering Speeds For
737-100/200/300/400/500", which was released after some discovery of rudder
problems. The standard maneuvering speeds where increased by 10 kts. Any one
have this article or similar? (google search proves negative).

"John Bentley" <noemail@nowhere.com> wrote in message
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Here is that article you mention :-
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/afs/fsga/fsga9908.doc (first hit on google when
searching for "Boeing 737 - 400 Maneuvering Speeds " (without the quotes
;-)) or it could be this paper :-
http://www2.faa.gov/atpubs/atbarc/00-3.htm which suggests that maneuvering
speeds have increased by as much as 20 kts, and appears to be a follow up to
the first doc mentioned above.

This is the tech spec page from a site dedicated to the 737
http://www.b737.org.uk/techspecsdetailed.htm which has various data for the
range of 737's.

Personally I am surprised a little that ATC asked you to increase your
cruise speed, since IMO it has little to do with them. I do agree that there
are VATsim controllers who do that kind of thing. Two of us had one coming
out of Spain once, (Madrid CTR) asked company traffic first to set 2000 FPM
climb " and stay at that until you reach cruise altitude", if he had tried
to comply the plane would have fallen out of the sky. ATC then asked me to
do something similar and I told him "unable to comply". He also asked if I
could take my 737-400 up to FL390 and I had to remind him that it's ceiling
was FL370. However, personally I go on what the FMC tells me for max speed
at a given alt and weight, which usually means I can only tweak it up a few
kts over the default setting it chooses. LRC (long range cruise) will give
you a slightly slower cruise speed of course.

I generally think of 210 kts as being the clean speed for the 737 in *any*
configuration since that is the speed that one normally uses when making any
*tight* turns on a SID or a STAR. It is also the hold speed unless otherwise
stated ( below approx FL 140 ) On approach I generally don't begin the flaps
until around 180 kts, so my clean speed for approaches is less than that
after take off. ( See my reply to the post entitled "flap questions" for a
more involved explanation about my personal flap settings.)

HTH

Chris J

Thanks Chris for your great reply.


Yes, this was the article I was reading. Still would like some sort of real
world technical source that actually has these maneuvering speeds rather than a
document that just says "increase them by 10kts".





Thanks for that. It is similar in content to another article I found (lost now)
by a pilot complaining about ATC becoming irritated by his refusal to slow the
B737 below 180 kts.


Yes. It is a good site. I had seen it before but I can't find the speeds I am
after on this page or on the site more generally.

I might be after Vh: maximum speed in level flight with maximum continuous power
(If this means a speed that Boeing is happy for you to fly at when ATC tells you
to fly as fast as possible). Can't find this.




There was someone on my tail and closeing. I was at FL310 at 280kts. The other
was to FL330 so ATC could have just let him pass. However, since it is a
simulation it is more interesting to do what may well be unecessary in the real
world. I was greatfull for the experience, being new to vatsim, of speed issues
and ATC.

I do agree

I'd offer, then, the simulation is working perfectly because it would seem that
in the real world ATC sometimes requests maneuvres outside the operating range.

From one of the previously quoted articles:
"It remains the pilot's responsibility and prerogative to refuse a speed
adjustment that he/she considers excessive or contrary to the aircraft's
operating specifications"

So you can be happy for the simulated opportunity to excercise your
responsibility and prerogative


Thanks for that. Would be nice if we could learn of an authorative source
though.


Thanks for that reference. Flap operations was exactly my next enquiry. I'm
still not clear though. Do you usually, on a normal approach, have full flaps
down BEFORE the gear extension and intercepting the glide path?

Could you expand a bit more on the proper approach speeds. Specifically, let's
say we have worked out Vref to be 134 kts. When should we reach this? By the
intercept of the glide path all the way to the threshold?

perhaps a reminder regarding gross weight as it is affected by fuel load is
in order here
as the all-up weight decrease so does the maneuvering speed
after planning one's flight, check the nav log for fuel requirements and
reduce fuel load accordingly
there was a study done regarding B73X runway incidents (crashes during
overruns) and it was found the craft were being landed at a
greater-than-recommended speed.
it's good practise to reduce speeds to what's recommended in the handbook
while operating this workhorse from Boeing

references cited:
AIRCRAFT APPROACH CATEGORY- A grouping of aircraft based on a speed of 1.3
times the stall speed in the landing configuration at maximum gross landing
weight. An aircraft shall fit in only one category. If it is necessary to
maneuver at speeds in excess of the upper limit of a speed range for a
category, the minimums for the next higher category should be used.

AIRCRAFT CLASSES- For the purposes of Wake Turbulence Separation Minima, ATC
classifies aircraft as Heavy, Large, and Small as follows:
a. Heavy- Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more than 255,000 pounds
whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase
of flight.
b. Large- Aircraft of more than 41,000 pounds, maximum certificated takeoff
weight, up to 255,000 pounds.
c. Small- Aircraft of 41,000 pounds or less maximum certificated takeoff
weight.

APPROACH SPEED- The recommended speed contained in aircraft manuals used by
pilots when making an approach to landing. This speed will vary for
different segments of an approach as well as for aircraft weight and
configuration





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"John Bentley" <noemail@nowhere.com> wrote in message
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Too many questions for a single thread ;-)
but let's try to categorize a bit and find some answers:
1. Structural speeds
2. Aerodynamic speeds
3. ATC speeds

1. Structural speeds: Generally all speeds that cope with structural limits,
such as Vmo, Vturb, but not Mach speeds. Vne deals with the structural load
of the wing and fuselage such as wing bending, drag. Vturb deals with with
possible exceedance of g-limits due to turbulence.

2. Aerodynamic speeds: All speeds that will influence the safety margins of
over- and underspeed. They are all but one connected to the actual weight of
the A/C. The only one which is not A/C weight dependend is Mmo.

3. ATC speeds: They are mostly procedural speed for either traffic flow
and/or obstacle clearance. e.g. flying 250 KTS below FL100 is such a speed
although there is also another important sense behind. Most operators and
A/C manufacturers also prohibit flying faster. Birds are most likely (with
very rare exceptions) to "operate" below FL100. And windshields are
generally tested to withstand an impact up to that speed.

Now let's talk about some of the mostly used speeds:
just after lift-off you will have to fly at least V2 speed. It is weight
dependend and calculated for each T/O. This speed can be derived from the
"speed booklet" or relevant tables. Modern A/C have them supplied by the
FMS. It is generally about 20% above stall speed and the additional safety
margin compared to approach speeds is supplied by the thrust vector of
engines delivering at least climb power. It is not allowed to fly a V2 speed
with less than climb power.
For flap retraction during climb-out the same applies. You have to reach at
least the relevant minimum speed for the next lower flap setting before
retracting the flaps and so on until you are above minimum clean speed. This
again is still weight dependend and is also the first moment when you are
allowed to reduce power. Should you be restricted to a climb out speed you
will have to observe to reach at least the minimum approach speed for that
flap setting inorder to reduce power.
Sounds all complicated? Well, not complicated but you might find out by now
that operating a commercial plane needs some thorough knowledge and flight
preparation.

For cruise flight you operate within the limits of Vmo/Mmo and Minimum Clean
Speed, often referred to as Vpclean.

Starting the approach to operate the flaps your higher limit is the max.
speed for flaps extension (not weight dependend) and the lower Vpclean
(weight dependend). Every A/C has a certain limit for flaps without gear.
Usually it's flaps around 15 deg. After that a warning horn is sounded which
reminds you that you have to drop the gear. Minimum speeds for approach are
always weight dependend and have therefore to be calculated (or derived from
the speed booklet or the FMS) prior to starting the approach. They are
generally some 30-35% above stall speed. Once you are fully established on
the finals and flaps are fully set you come back to your approach speed for
full flaps which is Vref+5. At that speed you have to cross the threshold
and actual touchdown is aimed to be with Vref (Vref also is for most A/C 30%
above stall speed).

An ILS approach should be flown so as to reach 1000 ft above touchdown
elevation fully established on ILS, on speed and configuration. Under
favourable weather conditions some operators allow to lower that limit to
500 ft. But for standard and - more important - training it is the best to
achieve fully established conditions at 1000ft which in turn means that you
need to lower full flaps some 3-400 ft before inorder to come back to final
approach speed including engine spin-up to stabilize on speed.

Well now, don't think that all. By far not!! But there have been written
books about all these procedures and techniques. So it would just come a
little too far to answer all questions on this thread.
So I'm very sorry if you feel "still confused, but on a higher level"!! ;-)
But don't hesitate to put on more specific questions if you feel so.

--
Oskar
(retired captain)
"remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes!"

"John Bentley" <noemail@nowhere.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
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let's
the

-- snipped for brevity ----------------
I'm
flaps
let's
the

Here is my general profile for approaches using the DF737-400.

I look to capture the LLZ between 13 and 17 DME at a speed of around 210 kts
and still clean. If ATC and/or the plan means I am going to be capturing
later than 13 DME, I might slow to 200 kts and go to flaps 1. To first
capture the LLZ I only hit the VOR/LOC button (you wont see this in the
default planes BTW) Once I am established on the LLZ I slow to 180 and may
go to flaps 2. I will also keep an eye on the G/S indicator. AS it starts to
move down, I may elect to go to 160 and flaps 5, theory is to be in
configuration before you hit the G/S if possible. ( A word here about where
the G/S starts on most approaches. A typical 3 degree G/S rises around 320
feet every Nm, and most approaches have what is sometimes known as the ILS
platform. It follows that if the platform is 2000 feet, you will hit the G/S
later and thus closer to the field than if the ILS platform was 2500 feet
( assuming the runway is at the same alt for both examples)) therefore I
make a mental note of how high I am and how far out I am likely to be when I
hit the G/S. If it is slightly further than average, I can keep my speed up
that bit longer. If it is lower and thus shorter, I will reduce to 160
before I hit the G/S and go to flaps 5. I will also press APR well before
the G/S. As the G/S indicator moves down, I will lower the gear when the
indicator is between one and one and a half dots above the G/S. (This is
based on advice from a few RL guys.) I maintain 160 until 4 DME at least.
This is a common request on VATsim and IRL BTW. After 4 DME I'm likely to
set 150 on the IAS , and then 140 @ 2 DME, bringing on flaps to control the
craft as necessary. I will aim to touch around 135, dependant upon what the
FMC says the approach speeds should be. One final note here. Approach speed
according to one or two RL pilots I know is Vref + half the headwind to a
max of 20 Kts.

The above procedure is based on a coupled approach, and letting the
"autoland" control everything but the flare in the Df734. Since that
aircraft has a penchant to drop off the G/S in Fs2002, I tend to keep the
speed up that bit longer in it than I might in say a default 737. I am still
learning with the NG 737-600 and 700, so cant give you any numbers for that
at the moment, sorry. But the truth is there is no set of magic numbers. The
above figures are only a guide, and should work with pretty much most of the
Jets save the heavies. For those you can add ten Kts to your final speeds.
The truth is that the more landings you make, the more likely your intuition
will take over, and you will fly the approach by instinct rather than saying
" I am almost 6 DME, therefore I must drop the gear ... " etc.

Personally I find myself these days hand flying the plane down from further
and further away. Today that meant me brining the plane in from 12 DME for a
rather tricky approach into Reno (KRNO) and again about the same distance
out for our second approach into Salt Lake (KSLC) In all honesty you should
come off the Auto pilot and Auto throttle whilst at least a 1000 feet, and
preferably more for the practise IMO.

HTH

Chris J

I'm the original poster, John Bentley, replying in via Google as my
local news server is playing up.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Oskar, which does facilitate more
specific questions.


By the way doesn't Vturb, a single speed represent 3 different things:
1. The speed to fly if there is turbulence.
2. The speed bellow which a full control deflection, like a full yank
on the joystick, will not structural damage.
3. The best speed for manuevering, that which gives you the best bite
into the air.

??


Melbourne Approach, Seagull 5467 request clearance to swoop on potatoe
chip.


Yes. I'm currently using http://www.b737.org.uk/vspeeds.htm. Is there
a more authorative table?


Good to have that confirmed. I would expect that to be the case. Why
use a table when there is a computer?


The best information I have on this is
http://www.b737.org.uk/flapspeedschedule.htm


This

Epiphany! You have consolidated something for me here Oskar! I have
usually just been bringing flaps up at 210 kts and simultaneously
reducing power. Instead I should be deliberate about having the flaps
fully retracted before touching the throttle.


That is the sensible carollary.


Yes. I'm sure that even though I can appreciate that during the
simulation you leave out so many procedures I still underestimate all
that is needed to operate real world.


Thanks. Didn't know "Vpclean" existed as a "V Speed". Isn't Vmo/Mmo a
structural limit that you really don't won't to fly at?? Another way
to ask this might be, have you flown at Vmo/Mmo in real life as part
of normal operations?

I suppose I need a clearer understanding of these V speeds.

I have a few definitions from somewhere:

Vno - Maximum Structural Cruise Speed - When cruising at, and below,
Vno the aircraft should not be damaged by a 30 feet/second vertical
gust.

Vmo Maximum Operating Speed - The speed that must not be exceeded
in any flight regime.

Vne Never Exceed Speed - The speed, which must not be exceeded in
smooth air.

Is Vno <= Vmo <= Vne?

If ATC where to ask me to cruise at maximum speed do we not also need
Vh, level flight speed at Maximum continuous thrust?

Is there good information on these figures for the B737-400. I have,
as a start, Vno 340 Kts IAS, Mmo 0.82. Normal Cruise 0.74, for fuel
efficency reasons. What is Vh (if that's the speed I'm after)?


I might be reading http://www.b737.org.uk/flapspeedschedule.htm
wrongly. I have been taking these speeds, for a given wieght, to be
the speeds AT WHICH you operate the relevant flap setting. Eg Up to
53070 Kgs, Flap 5 switch should be flicked at 180kts.

Should I instead be reading these speeds as the speed BY WHICH a
certain flap setting should be reached. Eg Eg Up to 53070 Kgs, Flap 5
should be set by 180kts.


That cements an understanding for me.

You're next two paragraphs are most helpful. I'll pepper them with
more specific questions.


That helps.


That helps. Is the "speed gate" for Vref, then, the threshold?


So if Vref is 134 then at 1000 touchdown elevation we are full flaps
and 140 knots (Vref + 5 and a little bit of rounding).

Under

Could you expand on this a little bit. I'd like to know, for standard
approaches, where the flaps are set relative to the glide path
intercept point.
From your description so far, and taking the GP intercept point to be
3000 ft, Flaps at intercept might be 10 or 15, gear comes down when GP
is about 1 scale deflection, Speed is being reduced from something
like 160, descent along GP begins, at that stage the aim is to slow
the craft and increase flaps to Full flaps and Vref + 5 as soon as
possible, consistent with remaining on the GP/having the craft behave
itself.


Well I am now confused at the higher level with great thanks to you.



As my mate David Goldie has said "We are a tiny part of nothing."

> C Eastwood:

Yes. I have created my own flight planning database to yield the
Aircraft wieght on Landing so that the relevant Vref can be derived.


Vref, the speed at which you touchdown, and as I learnt from Oskar the
speed at which you cross the threshold, is different from maneuvering
speed is it not?

I might be confused about what maneuvering speed is. I thought this
was the same as Vturb, the speed to fly in turbulence, as well as
being the speed which provides the best aerodynamic control.

Do we speak not of there being one manuevering speed rather serveral
manuevering speeds? A maneuvering speed for clean configuraion, A
manuevering Speed at flaps 15, A manuevering speed at flaps 15 with
gear down, etc.



The problem is I don't have a handbook. Do you have a link to a
handbook? The best I have is
http://www.b737.org.uk/flapspeedschedule.htm and
http://www.b737.org.uk/vspeeds.htm




So "approach speed" is really "Approach Speeds" and includes, Vref ,
Vref + 5 and the speed at which you intercept the glide path on the
ILS?

John

Before starting to answer your specific questions I must state that I'm away
from the practical flying busines quite a while now and from the instrucion
business even longer. And furthermore due to several unlucky circumstances I
do not have anymore any documents or notes from these times. So everything I
can tell you is from my memory and this also may be reduced and mixing up a
few things from time to time ;-) We're all not getting younger..........

So the first thing is a speed summary that I found through Google at
www.aviationboom.com/terms/vspeeds.shtml which describes more or less
completely all relevant speeds. And now trying to answer your specific
questions:


Vturb is not a specific speed but a group of speeds I was referring to. All
the ones you mentioned belong to this group. (Va, Vb etc.)


These tables are ok. I don't think that you have to go into more details.
However the most specific details would be derived from an original AOM.
Maybe somebody in this group has access to it?


Same as above.


Well, as you can see in the mentioned speed summary it does not exist as an
"official" speed. It is a speed specified by operators and/or A/C
manufacturers to indicate the lowest safe speed in clean configuration.
Depending on the A/C type it may vary between 35-50% above Vsclean. It's one
of the tricky speeds during approach in normal operation.This magic 210 KTS
that are often required by ATC and/or by procedures. Maybe you come in quite
close to max. landing weight and your Vpclean is 220 KTS. There's no other
way to negotiate this 220 KTS with ATC or set the first notch of flaps. But
never fly below Vpclean!
Vmo/Mmo are operating limits and can be flown at but you have to consider
each smallest headwind shear. Otherwise you will have the overspeed warning
coming in and remind you that you were not so clever! Usually you fly
Vmo -10 KTS or Mmo -0.02.
Vne is the structural limiting speed. Mach limits are not structural limits
at first instance. They deal with the build up of shockwaves at the most
critical points of the aircraft, e.g A/C nose and wing root where that air
mass is accelerated the most.


Yep, true. As stated above.


Vh is a nice speed but not operationally significant. Modern A/C will exceed
Vne with max. continuous thrust in low level flight. You might try that on
your B737 ( e.g at 5000 ft) but frankly I don't know the setting for max.
continuous thrust. But I'm almost sure it would go over Vne.


No, as I would interprete these are the minimum speeds for the given flap
setting. E.g. your Vp clean is 220 KTS (above 53070 kgs) you set flaps 1
before or latest at 220 KTS and do not fly slower than 200 kts. I remember
the Vfe speeds for different flap settings are mentioned on the kneeboard
notices. Usually for higher flap settings (>15) you will also add an
increment for headwind and gusts. The reason for that being the fact that up
to the flap settings without gear the calculation method includes a stall
margin of approx. 50% (same as Vpclean) whereas all higher flap settings are
considered as approach flap settings and calculated with the lower margin of
approx. 30%.


Per definition yes. But operationally you would cross the threshold still at
Vref +5 because you would not reduce power before 50 ft. I know that in FS
it is very easy to float even a heavy A/C to a smooth touchdown but reality
is somewhat different.


True, but again in real world there is no rounding. You would just fly 139
KTS! Remember: If you are able to fly exactly 140 KTS why shouldn't you be
able to fly exactly 139 KTS? ;-)
But don't forget to add some knots for headwind and gusts. As a rule of
thumb: Half of the headwind component but not more that 20 KTS, applied
(this time rounding yes..) in 5 KTS steps. So your final appoach speed can
be maximum Vref + 25 KTS. But observe the Vfe limit! Most A/C have two flap
settings for final approach (e.g. B737 flaps 30 and 40) just to give you a
wider speed margin under unfavourable conditions. (Bigger spread between
Vref30/Vfe30 than Vref40/Vfe40) Tricky, isn't it? ;-)


Well that's fine. Let me explain that a little further.
Standard ILS is normally around 8 miles. Knowing your A/C and no other
traffic around you may even intercept at Vpclean and trying to decelerate so
as to reach Vref+5 at the latest at 500 ft AGL. You might have to drop the
gear first as some A/C even accelerate with low flap settings and idle
thrust on a 3 deg GP. We could do that on the good old DC9 series (but not
MD80). On the Airbuses (series A319-321 and A330) except for the A319 you
had no chance to decelerate fast enough! (especially when there's a light
tailwind component upon intercepting the ILS, as we usually have on my
homebase LSZH)
So a good and standard practice is indeed what you described. Intercept the
LOC with a low flap setting and a speed around 180 KTS. Upon GS intercept
drop the gear and start reducing further until you have reached your final
approach speed. With some experience you will find out when to set the next
flap setting inorder to reach your gate (fully established as described) at
1000 ft AGL. (Some operators even require to be established "at the OM or
1000 ft AGL, whichever comes first") But remember in real world there might
be so many factors that lead to changes in your planned speed schedule (e.g.
A/C behind you is closing in or A/C in front of you decelerates faster than
anticipated). So ATC will just give you a speed and you will have to fly
that till a certain point where you are released to "reduce to approach
speed".

Ok, so much for now. I hope I could clarify some of the open questions.
"We are a tiny part of nothing!" I agree with that too!

--
Oskar
(retired captain)
"remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes!"

> -------------------------------------------------


Note your qualifications here. Better that you tell me, as you have, your
knowledge from memory than feel obliged to hunt for an authorative text which
might be so bothersome as to tempt one not to reply at all


That's a useful link.


Thanks. So Vturb, as I've enumerated them, is NOT a single speed.
Instead we have:
1. The speed to fly if there is turbulence: Vb or Vturb
2. The speed bellow which a full control deflection, like a full yank
on the joystick, will not structural damage.: (Some V speed ??)
3. The best speed for manuevering, that which gives you the best bite
into the air. (Va, which varies for different weights and configurations ??)


It's a shame boeing requires a log in to access the innards of it's sight which
might have an AOM. I can't see what gain they have in excluding the general
public.


Well it should be because, evidently, it's another key speed aviators are
interested in knowing.


Ah, it's a speed limit rather than a speed target! That changes my perception.

Depending on the A/C type it may vary between 35-50%

You mean, I'm just repeating your information in my own words, never fly bellow
Vpclean until you become unclean (drop a flap).


Help me cement this. Being an "operating limit" has an implicit "normal" as in
"quite OK during normal operations".


Do you mean you usually fly, or "cruise", at Vmo -10kts/Mmo -0.02 or that your
usual flying maximum, for those occasional times that you have to fly fastest,
is at Vmo -10kts/Mmo -0.02?

I got this def. from somewhere, obviously talking about a GA speed dial:
Vno - Maximum Structural Cruise Speed - When cruising at, and below, Vno the
aircraft should not be damaged by a 30 feet/second vertical gust. It is
indicated by the top end of the Airspeed Indicator's Green Arc. Smooth air only
for speeds in the Yellow Arc.

Does this contradict your "have to consider each smallest headwind shear"? That
is, this def. of Vno seems to be a limit that allows for gusts.


I interpreted Level flight speed at maximum continuous thrust to mean:
A. The maximum thrust you would set while in level flight over a long time
without burning the engine to pieces.
Rather than
B. The maximum thrust it is possible to set in level flight.

I'm wrong?


Thanks. Makes sense.

I remember the Vfe speeds for different flap settings are

Didn't know we had to add a component for headwind and gusts. Thanks.


Thanks.


Wow. Thanks. Yeah sure! I was saying the same thing to myself as I wrote about
the rounding. Can't really justify why I would want to round. My thinking was
that Vref + 5 is a safety margin anyway so 1 or 2 kts doesn't really matter. I'm
sure 1 or 2 kts doesn't matter (correct me if wrong), nevertheless, why not fly
at the calculated target speed (here 139kts)?


Thanks again. You are teaching me a great deal. Will be saving your post in the
Knowledge Base.


And in big gusts/ or big headwinds do we use lower flap setting (even 25, 15) or
would 30 be the lowest?

In nil wind would you land at various flap settings (40, 30, 15) depending on
which taxi point you wanted to leave the runway?


Great to know!


Just read the charts for some ILS approaches in New Zealand which has a
requirement to keep speed above 160 kts until 5nm from threshold. So your
explaination helps me understand this.


So can we summarize this by saying that we should be able and prepared to fly at
any speed above Vref + 5 + 1/2gusts/headwind that ATC may want us to as long as
we configure the A/C properly. Excepting that before intercepting the approach
we'd rather not fly below the minimum speed with gear retracted.




In my words, nihilism is true. That is, meaning can only, at base, be internally
derived. Even if there were a god that still would not provide meaning from an
external point of view.